Chaired by Mark Boylan of The Irish Field, the discussion featured contributions from Michael Moore (Ballincurrig House Stud), Peter Nolan (Peter Nolan Bloodstock), Jordan Cummins (Rathurtin Stud) and Jerry McGrath (Goffs UK, bloodstock agent)

Mark Boylan (left) with panellists Jordan Cummins, Jerry McGrath, Peter Nolan and Michael Moore

When you’re looking at foals, physically, what can you forgive and what can you not accept?

MM: It’s all about conformation, number one, and movement of the foal. And then I think you can relax a little bit on the sire or the pedigree really.

PN: It’s all about the individual, the sire and dam just validates it for you. I never mind the baby foal. We’ve been lucky with May, June foals. Use your imagination a bit. Never mind a horse toeing out, but I can’t have one toeing in.

We look at a lot of foals. I haven’t got too fancy not to give €1,000 or €3,000 for a foal. That’s gone out of it a bit. That’s the bread and butter side of it. People are afraid to buy the chancy foal, but they are ones that can pay the bills.

JMcG: When I get the catalogue, the first thing I do is look for siblings that I know. From my point of view, when you’re buying a lot of horses and point-to-pointers, and if you’re associated with yards, you know that there’s sisters or brothers and things like that. When it comes to stallions, there’s certain stallions that I’ve absolutely no luck with, and then naturally I’d stay away from them, but only if you’ve had personal bad luck with stallions. Otherwise, I think you should look at every stallion. I think people nowadays are very dismissive of stallions very quickly, and it’s not actually based on personal experience. It’s on what people say at the bar or what someone said two weeks ago.

JC: You have to have a nice horse coming back. And I think the sales companies are understanding of that, even if you do concede on pedigree. If you show the inspectors a nice horse in January or February as a three-year-old, they still take them over a nice pedigree. I would prefer to have a nice horse and a lesser pedigree.

You have to buy a nice foal. Everybody’s prepping foals so well nowadays that there’s no such thing as a backward or hungry foal that you can dramatically improve.

Has the level of horsemanship among breeders and consignors improved at the foal sales?

JMcG: Yes, definitely, and I think an awful lot of it comes down to the land they were raised on as well. I’ve lived in England an awful long time now and when I am doing inspections, you can see there are parts of England where the soil and the grass is not half as good as it would be in parts of Ireland. When they’re young, they need as much calcium as possible.

If you look at enough foals, you probably will see the odd one that you think you can improve. But there’s a lot of work to be put in to do that, to doing that, and that’s why it probably helps a few people looking at the foals for you and you’re splitting the work up.

The store horse consignors have also come on a lot. Now when you’re buying a store, breaking the horse is so much easier than it probably was five or six years ago, because you literally just put a saddle on and they’re ready to go. The lads have so much done with them before.

When you study a catalogue, what kind of database are you using? What’s your approach?

JMcG: I look down through the first and second dam to see if I can see any immediate relations or pluses that I like. I love the thought of looking at a foal knowing that the half-brother is in a top yard in Britain and well-regarded.

It doesn’t always work. In November, there was a foal we were trying to buy because we had the sibling, but the sibling has run since and he ran very ordinary.

Like I said earlier, you have to go with a stallion you like, and if the dam is proven all the better.

I’m not a big fan of older mares. I know you have to take into consideration what age she retired at or how many foals she’s had.

JC: The physical is probably more important than the page, though the dam is important. You try to avoid old mares, but sometimes you can’t. I’d have reservations about unraced mares by certain sires, but in general I’d prefer unraced to one that couldn’t win a point-to-point.

I can’t afford a lot of proven sires, but you have to take a chance. Some of them might have a group of models that you wouldn’t be mad about, and another sire could have a group that you do like, so you try to get one there. It’s something you can really only decide on at the sales.

PN: You’d like to find out about the family, maybe even the second dam might have three or four yet to run.

The big no-no for me is if a mare has had four runners and only one winner. I remember trying to sell a nice horse to Donnchadh Doyle four or five years ago and he says to me “The mare has had four runners, one winner. I only have a 25% chance that this one is going to win.”

I remember buying a King’s Theatre foal one year. The mare had four runners, no winner, but had two Presentings still to run. I thought ‘Surely one of them is going to win.’ We came back as a three-year-old and now the dam had six runners, no winner!

Give us a sire or two who could be on the up.

JMcG: Wings Of Eagles wouldn’t have been everyone’s cup of tea two or three years ago, but he’s having a lot of winners now.

The point-to-point lads seem to like Order Of St George an awful lot. They’re racy.

Getaway is one that has probably gone cold and he is still getting graded race winners and impressive point-to-point winners. Diamond Boy is another sire doing well.

JC: I’ve been very lucky with Goliath Du Berlais. I also like Crystal Ocean. I think his stock move very well, they all have a good action and I am looking forward to seeing how they do in point-to-points.

PN: Affinsea has been very lucky for us. Jukebox Jury is getting horses with a bit of scope. The hardest thing with him is breeding to him, but if you get a nice one, you get well paid.

Jukebox Jury raced for a few seasons with Mark Johnston and retired sound. Eoin Banville’s horse Dee Ex Bee did the same and is getting nice foals.

If you just follow the big three or four sires at the sales you will go broke. There’s value down the line with young sires. You have to take a chance with a young horse.

If you’re looking for one off the beaten track, how about Kool Kompany, the Jeremy horse that stands in Westmeath. We’ve had some luck with him already and we might just have a nice bumper horse by him to come out soon. I won’t tell you his name, but there won’t be many by Kool Kompany running!

What are the big challenges facing the NH industry?

MM: Personally, I think there’s a bit too much negativity about it. I was at the sale in Newbury recently and the number of people that go racing in England is unbelievable. I’m fairly sure that the English market will always want our horses. They are our biggest market and this season it looks like they are getting nicer horses than they have had for a while.

From a breeder’s point of view, everyone feels forced to go to three or four stallions. But if your foal is going to be one of 200 that’s the risk.

If I was giving advice to anyone starting off, it would be to just trust your own judgment, buy a nice horse, don’t expect to make a million, and work away quietly.

PN: You’d love to see the point-to-point sales continue to be strong. You have to walk before you can run. As I said earlier, people are gone away from buying a cheap foal and turning it into 30 or 40 grand. You won’t get that in a bank. I just think people should go back to the grassroots. My father used to say it’s a great game, as long as you play at your own level. So if you land a good touch, stay doing what you’re doing. Don’t land it all back in.

JMcG: Speaking from an agent’s point of view and as someone based in England, there is a hunger for form horses. An awful lot of people came away from the last two point-to-point sales having been outbid and they had good budgets. This money will trickle back to the store sales and the foal sales.

The one little worry I have for the industry is the number of National Hunt breeders and consignors and pinhookers, who have switched from National Hunt to the flat in recent years. The returns are quicker, maybe easier and they are getting on very well.

JC: Without wanting to sound like an old-timer or anything, the price of everything has gone up - feed, vets, just to keep a horse has gone very expensive. Especially a National Hunt horse you’re keeping for three years, staff and everything, I think it’s a good idea to partner up with people who can offer what you can’t. Like, if you have a bit of land and somebody else has a bit of time to prep them, I think that’s a good way of being able to share a cost without money changing hands. Or maybe you could work at weekends for someone in lieu of the cost of them keeping your horse. There’s more than one way to skin a cat.

I remember one leading consignor saying to us at the foal sales that it cost them €37,000 to raise a store from a foal to a three-year-old, so you have to be able to find your space of where your profits going to come from.

What’s your best piece of advice for the foal sales?

JMcG: If you are looking at a foal you like and you ask the vendor ‘What kind of money are you thinking?’ and the first thing they say is, ‘Well, he’s cost me 18 grand,’ that’s a bit off-putting. The vendor should be setting their price based on the strength of the market on the day they’re selling, not on what the horse has cost them up until that day.

PN: Back your own judgement. Don’t be going with the crowd. I was always told if they’re all going that way, you go the other way and you might get a bit of an opportunity. You may be buying a bit of value.

Don’t always chase the same three or four sires. Try and buy a nice foal, rear it well and put into the sale. Joe Foley said to me: ‘Make sure when you’re selling that your horse stands out’. So rather than fighting to get him into a Derby Sale, try to be a big fish in a small pond.

When you are putting forward a horse to a trainer, what is the most common reason why they say no?

JMcG: It’s a little bit easier to bring them form horses. It’s harder when you’re selling a store, because you have plenty of trainers that don’t like the sire, they don’t like the broodmare sire, or they had a relation they didn’t like. With a form horse, they’ll forgive things an awful lot more.

A perfect example is The Jukebox Man. He’s by Ask, he’s got a terrible set of front legs, but he is a Grade 2 winner over fences and almost won a Grade 1 last year. You get freaks like that, so you can’t be too dismissive when you get the catalogue through the door.

You have suggested taking a chance on a cheaper foal. But won’t it be hard to get that foal into a premier store sale? The lesser store sales don’t have the same footfall.

PN: You’re right.That’s probably the biggest challenge for young consignors. For people like myself or Michael, we probably have a bit more leverage with the sales companies because of the number of horses we have. If you have a good-looking horse with an okay pedigree, it can still be hard to get into the bigger sales. But, as I said earlier, you could be better off being a big fish in a small pond.

JMcG: It’s a very good point. It’s a numbers’ game. A few friends might come together to buy a foal for €10,000 and it’s not always easy for them to get it into a sale unless they use a big consignor. As an agent inspecting stores, I shouldn’t be influenced by what the horse cost as a foal, but if I see it was only four grand it’s going to be at the back of my mind. So if you are a one-man band, you have to be a little bit careful.

JC: I agree. But if are worried you won’t get your horse into the right sale, you can ring someone like Peter and say, ‘Will you consign a horse for me, and I’ll work the sale for you?’ The leading consignors would only love to have one or two lads coming to help them and then they have two fewer people to pay. Everybody’s happy.

Should the two-year-old store sales be a stand-alone sale or should they be sold in-between the three-year-olds?

PN: There probably won’t be the numbers for a separate sale. I’d say there might be 50 of them sold at the end of the day or something like that. It will take a while to take off, because it is a new thing for us consignors too. This is the first time we will be talking to clients about picking out horses who might suit that job.

JMcG: It’s hard enough to get English trainers over to the store sales to buy three-year-olds, so I would worry about the footfall for a stand-alone two-year-old sale. You have to incorporate it into the existing store sales, people are there. The sales companies will have to ensure they are a nice crop of two-year-olds as well, not rabbits! Like everything, the success will be based on results.

JC: Not to sound miserable, but another sale is another cost on vendors, another trip, another set of staff. I think it would be better maybe a day before the three-year-olds, like the December Yearling Sale a day before the Foal Sale in Newmarket. If you sell 20 or 30 in the middle of the day, I think it kind of breaks up the rhythm of the sale.

You have advised staying away from old mares. What age is old?

JMcG: It depends on what age they’re retired at. But I suppose anywhere up around 20 mark is probably a mare I’d be checking again. Even if she produced a blacktype foal, but her last five foals have barely won a race between them, you’d be questioning that.

What is your view on breeders’ premiums?

Richard Pugh (HRI): I think if an industry looks for something, it tends to find a way. I sat on the ITBA National Hunt Committee for a long time and there was often a view that all the incentives, like the ITBA NH Fillies Scheme, should go to the buyer and the breeder will ultimately get it. Maybe that’s not currently happening and, if that’s the case, then breeders need to push for premiums. If breeders’ premiums are wanted then, as an industry, I suppose we have to look at how we make it work.

JC: Something like the French breeders’ premiums are definitely needed, but the prize money in France is a lot better, and the premiums that come off prize money are substantial, whereas here the prize money is not as good. But a good start is half the battle.

JMcG: When I am buying horses in France, I’d say over 60% of the time the breeder is still involved in the horse. The French breeder is happy to race if they don’t sell. They typically give half the horse to the trainer in lieu of training fees. Maybe the new series of academy hurdles here will encourage breeders to do a deal with a pre-trainer or trainer with the intention of targeting those races.

Is there too much emphasis on mares with blacktype? As a breeder, it is very demoralising if an agent doesn’t want to look at your stock because your mare does not have blacktype even though she was a winner.

JMcG: If you like the individual enough, you forgive the pedigree to a point. But obviously you’d like to see a bit of blackype towards the top of pedigree, not just down in the third or fourth dam.

To buy a foal out of a blacktype mare, you need a big budget. Whereas, if you want to buy a foal for eight or 10 grand, you have to put in the legwork, see enough foals and hopefully find a racehorse among them. The best pedigree doesn’t mean the best physical and it doesn’t mean the best racehorses.

LEADING National Hunt breeder and consignor Frank Motherway had the panel stumped when he asked ‘Why do customers and agents ask to see a National Hunt foal trot, but nobody ever asks to see a flat foal trot?’

None of the panellists could explain this practice, though Jerry McGrath joked: “I wouldn’t like to go up to the Watership Down draft at Newmarket and tell them ‘Trot up that Dubawi foal for me!’” Are flat foals too posh to trot? Answers on a postcard please.